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Oh my gosh!  Heavy stuff this early in the morning, Liz.  But really, really important stuff.  I don’t want to address all of it, but I’ll add my two cents on a small piece:  Messaging around the nature of Compromise

Somewhere along the line, we screwed up the messaging around Compromise (Cap C) as a way of accomplishing a goal.  In relationships, it was feminized, in politics, especially in the current administration, weakened.  Even the word has serious negative historical connotations (In US history, the expression “xxx Compromise” almost always refers to a capitulation to the proponents of slaveholding--see “Connecticut Compromise”, “Missouri Compromise” etc.)

Successful men are “uncompromising” in their goals.  An “uncompromising” woman is difficult to say the least.

Compromize is a necessary element of successful socialization among human beings. And it is certainly a key tenet of a successful relationship or marriage. Successful relationships are characterized by necessary compromises on BOTH parts.

So, I think the reason the messaging started referring to ‘going it alone’ as the key to success was a bit of feminist hyperbole (certainly characteristic of the ‘70s).  Once the radical point had been made, we’ve spent the years since working on the middle ground.  (I’m sure someone will send up a flare the minute we are successful.)

For my part, I’d like to reduce the demonization of the word “Compromise”.  Little steps for little feet.

You’ve made my morning.  I can pretend to get to work now....

I should say, ‘For my part, I’d like to be able to SPELL the word compromise!!!!!”

Wonderful blog, Liz!  I too loved AN UNMARRIED WOMAN and MY BRILLIANT CAREER but could never understand why those women couldn’t have Alan Bates, Sam Neill AND their sense of self.

I think it’s so important to choose the right mate.  After 3 years of having the personality sucked out of me by the “wrong” boyfriend, I met my husband and realized that he didn’t “diminish” me but somehow made me more of who I was. 

It’s corny but it was perfectly summed up by Steve Winwood in his song WHEN YOU SEE A CHANCE by the lines, “Are you still free?  Can you be?” When I knew I could answer that question, “yes” and still be with him, I knew I’d found the right man to share my life with.

Sorry to make you think so early in the morning, SherryFM! But what great thoughts you have! I totally agree that compromise is getting short shrift these days. The more we celebrate our differences (and we should definitely celebrate those), the more we need to figure out how, since no one’s going to get their way, we can all live peacefully together.

And that was my beef with those films, Terri. Both men made clear they loved the women as they were and didn’t want or expect either to change. The women could and would still be free, even if they made a commitment to these men. And still the women felt they had to leave. My writing self sees them years in their future, personally fulfilled and totally unhappy because they have no one to share their fulfillment with.

I’ve identified myself as a feminist since I learned what the word meant. I still consider myself such. But I think that’s the one place where the women’s movement went wrong. They should have told us, “Hey, we’re all equals now, so let’s work together to achieve great things.” Instead, the message we got was, “Hey, we’re all equals now, so let’s compete with each other to see who can achieve great things first.”

I grew up in the same time period.  I always assumed I’d go to college and have a career but not get married or have children.  So I guess I did buy into that idea at the time. 

Because of the women who came before us, though, it never occured to me that I would be limited in my career choices.  I just figured I could do whatever I wanted, assuming I was willing to work hard enough.

What I find depressing now is the working mother vs stay at home mother wars.  Talk about a giant step backward!  I feel like the most successful aspect of the Women’s Lib movement was to give women choices.  For us now to be critical of the choices other women make is just wrong.  I don’t think this is a good message to pass on to our children, either.  And just for the record, I’ve tried all of it - stay at home, working, working part time, working at home - it’s all hard!!

I had the personality sucked out of me (and almost the life sucked out of me after the creep put a hit out on me--btw I found out about it on 9-11 when a federal agent came knocking on my door) by my exhusband.  I divorced that creep and I’m alot less lonely and much happier as a single. 

Despite my movie-of-the-week history, I still advocate marriage, but I would strongly advise young women who are about to get married to try to step back and listen to your instincts.

I think the message that girls and young women aren’t getting is that they don’t have to do everything--be the perfect wife, the perfect mother, the perfect housekeeper, and the perfect employee--and do it all wearing designer clothes with not a hair out of place, immaculate makeup and no chipped nail polish, like the ladies on Desparate Housewives.

I agree with Sherry - kinda early to make me have to think so hard But an interesting topic.

I was a teenager in the ‘80’s.  My problem was I had chosen a traditional female career - nursing - and I can’t tell you how many people tried to talk me out of it, because I should really be a doctor!  Being a nurse is demeaning! Women are empowered now, and should be doctors and call the shots!  And besides, doctors make more money! (This was, after all, the ‘80’s).  When I would explain that was all well and good, but I wanted to be a NURSE, for some people it was like I was single-handedly destroying the whole women’s movement by my decision.  Believe me, that was very aggravating.

Now there is a shortage of nurses, and while there are many reasons for it, I believe that one of the reasons is that many women who may have been genuinely interested in nursing have been convinced that it is demeaning and wrong for a modern, empowered women to do that - although nurses are some of the strongest, most empowered women I know.

Liz,

When I was in high school, I had no idea what I wanted to be or which career to choose.  My Calculus teacher wanted me to go into Engineering and I figured, ‘why not?’

But, it was my father that opened my eyes to how things really are perceived (I graduated high school in 1995) even today.

When I told him I wanted to be a Chemical Engineer, he told me, “(sigh) why don’t you become a teacher, that is a good thing to do, why do you have to choose engineering?  That’s for men to do, not women.”

I was speechless.......I didn’t know what to say.

I am a software engineer working in the aerospace industry now and there are not very many women.  It is changing but not fast enough.  For example, when I was in college, in my Physics I and II labs, I was the only girl.  In several of my classes, the maximum number of girls were 3 for every 24 boys.

Sometimes I felt less feminine, walking to the Chemistry building in jeans a ratty t-shirt and heavy sneakers (I pretty much lived in that attire, except for presentations).  You can say I was the typical tomboy type.  I never thought about the future without wishing for success and interesting projects.

I am single and avoid dating at all costs, I just want to reach my limit and give myself a chance to grow.

My mother asked me that if I was ever willing to come back to the high school where I grew up and give a talk to the female population.  I’m hesitant.

I grew up in a very small town and if you are lucky enough to leave, your chances are better.......but if you stayed for 2-3 yrs after high school.......well, chances are you will never leave. 

Everyone chooses their path for various reasons.....I guess I would just want todays teenage girls to know, ‘hey, there’s more out there.....you just have to work hard and be patient’.

Today, I’m the only female on my project.  The last 3 projects, I’ve been the only female with a group of 8-10 men.

Sometimes I attend high level meetings and sitting around, being the only female among customers and analysts....I hide a smile.  I worked hard and I am very blessed and thankful for those who came before me.

g

Avgrltx - it sounds as though you’ve found your calling - it amazes me that there is still any doubt that women should be in these fields.

I had an interesting experience several years ago - I interviewed to do technicial user materials for a manufacturing company.  One of the men expressed doubt that I could understand the subject matter because of my gender and another thought that maybe I could because my husband is an engineer.  Please.  I’ve been doing work for these people for over 5 years.  I think the best rebuttal in this case was just to prove them wrong.  As have you…

Carolyn,

I know several women in your field and it’s tough work.  Many times my collegues and I run towards the people in charge of documentation for keen insights and last minute inserts.  There is this one woman whom I had the chance to work with in a limited role, but still, I found her absolutely inspirational.  She is older than I am obviously and she knows the ‘item/project/area’ like the back of her hand.  I would just sit in awe at some meetings where she would be scribbling and some ‘guy’ asks a question pertaining to an item that was developed 15-18 yrs ago and she just looks up from her notepad and recites it in detail.

Not sure if you remember the commercial slogan for Nike I think, with Michael Jordan, where the kid sings, “If I could be like Mike..” But, one day, I would like to be like Jean.

I absolutely agree that the feminist movement got it wrong by insinuating we could only have one (career) and not the other (love).  It would be even more “feminist” if it were made clear, “have it all.” Why not?

That said, I grew up pretty staunch, filling my head with May Sarton’s Mrs. Stevens Hears the Mermaids Singing and Carolyn Heilbrun who once wrote, “I believe that women have long searched, and continue to search, for an identity ‘other’ than their own.  Caught in the conventions of their sex, they have sought an escape from gender.”

Okay.  I bought into that, developed a pretty heavy case of righteous indignation.

But then I got tired of being angry.  I just wanted to be left alone to be myself. This is where I am still.  Of course, I realize I have this luxury because of who fought the battle before me, but I like being peaceful.

However, what I fight now is body image, for my daughter’s sake.  In the age of if you don’t develop it--buy it, I refuse to get plastic surgery even though I have a Beverly Hills uncle who offers it to family members for free.  I need to show her that what you really need to develop is your head….into accepting yourself. 

Besides, when Uncle Al asked if I wanted boobs, I told him I would be like the dog that chases after a bus--he wouldn’t know what to do with it once he caught it anyway.

Beth W,
I work at a college that has a large nursing division, including a master’s program in nursing, and the surprising thing is that more than half of the people enrolled in the nursing program are male--especially among the ROTC cadets.  I know one young man who left a lucrative career in computers to become a nurse.  Some of the most caring nursing that I personally have received has been from male nurses.

I know this is kind of off topic, but it does go to demonstrate how far we’ve come since the 70’s in gender typing that particular career. 

And now there is a very real possibility (whether you care for her or not) that Hilary Clinton could be president one day.  Did anyone just hear glass breaking?

Liz, great topic.

It seems to me that WE women born in the 50’s and 60’s have been the ones that have always made the compromises.  Why is that?  Also why is it when WE feel we are making strids, we experience a fall that makes us go 4 steps back? As in, Carly Florina, ex-CEO of Hewlett Packard, due to resentment of her leadership publically losing her job, was the butt of jokes(even by Jay Leno) and the Press had a field day with her downfall. I guess we all can’t really get along.

I believe we should tell/teach all our young girls/teens that they can “have it all”, as JPerry says, and to respect feminist principles.

All I want to say is that I heart Joss Whedon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs

Of course we’ve come a long way.  Which doesn’t mean that the journey’s anywhere near over.  One of the biggest steps we have to overcome is how we booby-trap language.  Words (and the concepts they embody) can be diverted from their original meanings, and that hijacking isn’t always friendly.  Think of how ‘liberal’ managed to become a dirty word in politics.  Then there’s ‘feminism’, the new (again) dirty word.

Every time a young woman says ‘I’m not a feminist’ in a tone of disgust, she’s saying she really doesn’t believe that men and women are equal under law.  That’s probably not what she THINKS she’s saying:  most likely she’s rejecting the pervasive image of man-hating/supremacist/unwashed/whatever that gets trotted out to scare the masses.  But what she’s really doing is aligning herself with a faction who doesn’t want her to have a choice- or a voice - at all.

I know this sound pedantic and picky.  But language is the basis of all of our interactions, so we have to keep calling people on it.

Wow, this IS a tough topic. And a difficult one too.

I do think we came a long way (, baby), but I also think there are lots of obstacles still. New obstacles maybe, sometimes disguised as “progress”, but nevertheless some that cause problems for women.

For example women having better career choices and possibilities, but also having more pressure since very often they are still the ones mainly responsible for their family.

One thing strikes me odd for example. Where I live (Germany) more girls than boys get degrees that enables them to go to university and they get better grades. Still very few of them get good positions in a university career. Among the highest paid professors are still remarkable less women than men.

While this is not a direct message I believe it tells female students something if the majory of their teachers is male.

A famous German feminist said: We (meaning women) only want 50% of the world. Not more, but also not less. I think this is an interesting statement.

Firefly- I loved Joss Whedons “Equality now” speech! Very true and wise (not to mention funny) acceptance speech.

I’ve long considered myself a feminist, which to me simply means that people, both men and women, are judged as individuals.  If only one woman in a million is capable of doing something, then she should be able to do it, whether the comparable statistic for men is one in a million or one in ten.  I think the feminist movement in the early 70s wasn’t so much saying men are scum as saying women could be whole without relying on others for our identity.  That’s fine, and I do believe it, but I also think both men and women are happier if they “only connect”.  I adore my husband and children and would not have wanted to go through life without them, but I agree with Liz that it shouldn’t be either/or—married/unfulfilled or career/lonely.  Married, fulfilled, career, and connected are NOT mutually exclusive terms.

Oh, there will always be something to fix in the Feminist Movement.  Nature abhors a vacuum.  You fix one problem, and invariably five more pop up. 

My short list of what needs to be addressed:  Body Weight and Image.  Now I feel we’ve been told we can have love and career--though perhaps imperfectly--but now we need to be obsessed with how we look all the time, or we won’t move up in our careers...or keep our husbands.  Or even get a great career or a husband without the right image.

Great blog today, Liz!

I have a little girl (she’s 3), and I think a lot about the messages that she receives growing up and how they compared to the messages I received.  (I was a teenager in the 80s.)

One thing that makes me very happy is that my daughter has a lot of role models in her life for different paths that a woman may choose to follow (and be happy and fulfilled in those choices).  When I was growing up, I knew hardly any working moms.  It was a strange thing to be told that I could pursue anything that I wanted but then to look around and not see that as an everyday reality.

I also love the fact that there are so many successful female athletes compared to when I was growing up.

The thing I find most troubling as a mom today are all of the negative/objectifying sexual images of women in our culture.  I recently read Ariel Levy’s Female Chauvinist Pigs which discusses the pervasivenes of these images and how women participate in perpetuating this trend.  Her theory is that women have internalized the idea that they need to behave like men in order to have power in our society and that this, in turn, involves sexual objectifation of themselves and other women.  While I’m not sure I agree with everything she says, she presents a lot of compelling examples for her thesis--female Olympians posing for Playboy; the willingness of girls to participate (unpaid!) in Girls Gone Wild movies; the mainstreaming of porn culture (e.g., NYT bestselling “How to Make Love Like a Porn Star” by Jenna Jameson, who BTW has a horrible history of being raped and sexually abused); the popularity and the willingness of women to have elective, cosmetic plastic surgery on their private parts (and, no, I’m not talking boob jobs); thong underwear with “Hello Kitty” branding in little girls sizes; and all of the Paris Hiltons and other young women who starve themselves and open their sex lives to public consumption to attain status.

And, for any of you wanting to be really shocked by the latest contortion of the term “feminism”, there is Cake--an organization that celebrates a feminist version of female sexuality by throwing huge parties in NYC and London where women watch other women perform strip shows and lap dances.  If you don’t believe me, check it out for yourself:

http://www2.cakenyc.com/about

If this stuff isn’t a mixed message--I don’t know what is . . . .  What’s amazing to me is that these trends go essentially unquestioned by our culture, while romance novels (which are all about positive portrayals of female sexuality and where the focus is on choosing to lead a happy, fulfilled life) are so often discounted and villified.

I totally agree with MsHellion regarding body weight and image.  Does the fact that I’m not a size 2 or 4 negate all the good things I’ve accomplished to date?  And because I don’t wear designer clothing or shoes or carry a $500 handbag, does that mean I’m not successful?  Or smart?  Or just plain cute to have around?

Yet, unfortunately, that’s still how we are judged, especially by other women.  I’m 49 and still get looked up and down by women as they mentally tick off how many strikes I have going against me before I even open my mouth.

My husband thinks I’m smart and drop-dead gorgeous to boot.  My daughter thinks I’m kick-ass great.  In the mirror, an average image looks back at me, but I think...what the hell, I’m aging gracefully, my health is much better and having fun living.

I think we’ve come a long way but have a longer way to go.  When I look at the role models my daughter’s have today...I honestly prefer that they didn’t.  I mean, look at whats out there:  Paris Hilton, Jessica Simpson, Lindsay Lohan.  Come on!  These girls either use their “pretend stupidity” to get what they want or feel that they need to be the size of a broomstick to be pretty.  We need to teach our girls that they do not need a man to validate them but if they do find a good one that comes along, thats great!!!  We need to teach them that they can be what they choose to be and CAN have it all if they are willing to work hard for it!

I think woman our power-houses now. Not only can they carry a career and be the bread-winner in the family but they can have children, a wonderful husband and a little dog too haha. I could be blinded by this, or maybe Eloisa has just overly stunned me, but the woman I see today want it all and can get it all if they put their hearts into it. The only thing I see that we can’t do (in general, not me personally) is become president...but I don’t think that will be too far away. I mean look at President Hillary...oops I mean haha.

With the fact that woman are having babies a bit later in life there isn’t such a rush to finish highshcool get married and start a family. You can go to college, get a great job and then search for the romance side...if it doesn’t sneak up on you.

My daughter knows the world is at her feet, she just has to pick a path and go with it. We’ve taught her from a young age that if she has a dream she should follow it. Of course at the time her dream was to be a movie star (we hoped she’d move away from that one haha).

So as I said, I might have my blinders on to the world, but I could have sworn it had changed in huge ways. Granted we still have to wear those dang-ole’ bra thingys. Why do mean get off being so lucky to not have to wear these blasted things.

Sorry, didn’t mean to abandon the conversation. I went out for a few things and ended up doing some Christmas shopping.

Wow, great observations and stories all around, you guys! You’re all inspirations!

Carolyn, I totally agree that this working mom/stay-home mom divisiveness has got to stop. I’m both--when my husband and son are at school, I’m focused on my work full-time, but when they’re home from school, I’m focused on my family full-time. And I guarantee you I’m the same person either way. I don’t understand why women have to be at odds over this.

Avgirl, I salute you. You’re definitely doing things your way. I do have a sneaking suspicion that we are returning to the days of traditional roles. Only now it’s more insidious, because we don’t have any in-your-face social movements to counter it. But as I said, female world leaders are disappearing. We’re seeing fewer shows on TV with strong women. Fewer movies with strong older women role models. Scary.

LOL, J. As always, you are Very Wise. I’ve stopped coloring my hair for the same reason. Now my dieting and exercise is for good health, not looks. (Alzheimer’s runs in the family, alas.) I’m hopeful my nieces will never buy into the image thing. (So far, so good.)

Chris, I don’t think you’re being picky at all. I, too, am horrified when I hear young women denouncing feminism. But I think this is a case of a message not being gotten across. We do need to embrace that word the way we used to and show what it really means.

Wow, FASCINATING post, Melissa. I need to check out this book. I’m reminded of Susan Falludi’s BACKLASH, which came out some time ago, actually, in which she took on all areas of women’s lives--everything from fashion to medicine--and described how society still undermines us and how we let them get away with it. How misogyny is very much alive in the very areas that depend on the female dollar. I need to go back and reread that, too.

Ana Maria, I’m troubled by how many women my age (45) are reluctant to reveal it. They say they’re afraid they’ll be viewed as less valuable in their jobs (and I’m talkin’ ALL jobs) if their superiors and coworkers know their age. And I’m like, Huh? I’ll tell anyone who wants to know how old I am. As far as I’m concerned, each decade has been better than the one preceding it. I’m more valuable the older I get, because I have more to offer. This sort of thinking perpetuates because we let it.

And I have to say, I love it that the message IS getting through that we CAN have it all. As said, however, we need to point out that having it all does not include perfection.

Oh, and, Firefly, thank you for that link. I’ve always loved Joss, but now I see that he’s the Real Deal.

This is a great discussion.  I teach Women’s History at my college, and this question reflects a lot of our class discussion during these last few weeks as the semester winds down.

J. Perry’s comments about her Uncle Al’s breast implant offer reminds me of a statistic I share with my class each semester, from the American Society of Plastic Surgeons --

Breast Augmentation: Advertised by one local office as “In order to feel young inside and outside”—also said to enhance confidence and job success, in a radio commercial I heard.

1992 – 32,607
1999 – 167,318 (a 413% rise since 1992)
2001 – 219,883
2002 – 236,888 (a 730% rise since 1992, 11% rise since 2000)
2004 – 264,041
2005 – 291,350 (up 37% since 2000 alone).

Breast augmentation remains the #1 cosmetic procedure for women in America today.  More interesting to me is the age breakdown they provide.  F’rinstance, in 2004 --

Under 18: 2% (3,962)
Age 19-34: 50% (130,700)
Age 35-50: 42% (110,897)
Age 51-64: 6% (15,842)
Over 65: 1% (2,640)

The number that amazes me is the “under-18s”, which went from 2,600 in 2001; 3,095 in 2002; to 3,581 in 2005.

This detail isn’t so significant to the overall discussion of expectations, roles, gender identity.  But what does is say about our society and its emphasis on female appearance that the surgery numbers keep going up, particularly among our youngest adult women?

Sorry—I think about this stuff a lot as I teach it, so I get pedantic.  Rock on, board!

Mike

Wow, Mike, sobering statistics indeed. I’m frankly amazed that anyone would go through plastic surgery for any reason other than to correct a gross deformity. But breast implants leave me scratching my head most of all.

I definitely don’t think we’re still giving that message to young girls. Or older ones, for that matter. Sure, there’s sexism and even sexual harrassment--which is often seen as a necessary part of the job in order for a woman to gain cooperation from her male counterparts--so it’s not a perfect world. But in no way have I ever, EVER been told I can’t get married AND have a career. And if someone did try and say that to me, I’m strong enough to look them in the eye and tell them to go--well, they can ruminate on that wherever they want.

I’m an engineer. I went to an engineering school dominated by men and work with engineers in a field dominated by men. I work with a lot of mechanics, too, and in my area they tend to be men. Everyone assumes I’m married or plan to get married because I moved out West with my college boyfriend. As if I’d come all the way across the country just for ME. But when they find out I did, then I can see the respect grow. And no one has ever said, “Oh, so this is just a temporary gig, then?”

I’m pretty new to this Real World thing. I believe Society is finally getting it right. We can be and do anything we want, and we can do it with or without a family at home. And we have a right to tell everyone else it’s none of their business what we choose!

I raise my girls with one thought. “I’m married to Daddy because I want to be, not because I need him to survive in life.” My husband loves that because he believes in anything I do. He also wants our girls to be everything they can be as well as happy and reminds them there is NOTHING they cannot do. Of course, he had a really great mom!! (it helps
This is a great discussion because I know my girlfriends, with or without children, think about this alot. I show my girls and their friends that you can enjoy wearing makeup and doing your hair and that doesn’t keep you from being able to string fences, train horses or manage men!
I believe if we learn to know ourselves we can accomplish whatever we desire. The feminist movement may have had problems but they took the first bite out of the proverbial elephant so we can keep dining one bite at a time!

This is completely off topic.

Christina is it true that Scent of Darkness and Touch of Darkness are coming out back to back?

Of course like with most things, we’ve come a long way, but still have a ways to go.  Just look at the fact that in many places in the workplace, men and women still don’t make the same amount for the same job.  But I think a lot has to come from home. 

When I grew up in the 80s and high school in the early 90s, I didn’t feel like I got mixed messages.  I wanted to be an astronaut, and I was never told I couldn’t (although when I said I wanted to go to Mars, I got funny looks.  Apparently those same people suggesting the moon thought that was okay and not the other LOL).  I never thought my Barbies should be what my body looked like (though I love the clothes and still want some of those!) And sure, when I was younger in the early 80s a young girl did snag a prince, long before we knew they didnt’ live happily ever after, but no one I knew ever really thought, ooh, that’s going to happen to us.  Maybe I was just lucky, but in the end, it always comes down to those at home to help sort out those mixed messages. 

But I think when it comes to marriages, the best message is from home or around the person—yep, there still is the idea out there that no matter how successful a woman is, the first question she’s asked is, so are you seeing someone or when are you getting married.  That’s something that needs to be worked on, but hey, stuff doesn’t change overnight. But as long as there is an example around that a) yep, you can be just fine without a guy or b) you can be married/have a significant other, both work and have a family or c) there is nothing wrong with being a stay at home mom/dad.  It’s all a matter of choice.

Lois

Cara said…
I show my girls and their friends that you can enjoy wearing makeup and doing your hair and that doesn’t keep you from being able to string fences, train horses or manage men!

Thank you for writing this. I wish I had been given this message when I was a child. Then it was academics, academics or you’ll end up like those losers who are stay-at-home moms who think of nothing but clothes, food, and housekeeping. I wish I’d been told that you could keep house and be an engineer and be a mom, or be any combination thereof, and you wouldn’t be a loser because of the choices you’ve made.

Hey Keira, I really feel your pain! When I got married my dad warned my (then) husband he didn’t want me to be barefoot and pregnant.....Huh? My dad definitely felt it was either/or but never both.
Now I live to simply bait him into an argument and then smile and nod. Makes him very, very angry with me!

I feel like I fell through the cracks when it comes to this issue. I chose to marry out of HS and then become a SAH mom. I still am. I know I have the ability to choose a career later on, when I feel my children don’t need me as much, but I am looked down upon by other Mothers that do work. I made a choice. To me, thats what being a femenist means. I was able to make a CHOICE that affected me, it wasn’t made for me. I wasn’t pressured to stay home. But, I don’t like being made to feel less of a woman because of it.
And as far as body image issues go? We as a society are setting dangerous standards for our daughters.

I know this blog is about sending the right message to girls and young women and I love reading all the comments regarding it.  However, I have to wonder, why does it just have to be a message to the girls?

If equality is what we are all striving for shouldn’t there be messages directed to the boys and young men out there? 

I watched that clip of Joss Whedon and how he credits his father and step father for teaching him to not be afaid of strong women. I think this message is being lost to our young boy and men. Boys are still being told not to cry and to toughen up.  A boy does not show any kind of emotion.  Empathy and compassion is being taken away from them. 

I believe, we as a society have come a long way in many areas but I feel we’ve also fallen behind in a number of them.

OV_099,

Sometimes when they ask the “seeing anyone” questions, they are just being nosey into your romance life haha. For most jobs it can be common knowledge what your doing...but what happens when you go home is your business and everyone is wanting the hot gossip on it haha. Or at least thats my take on that question.

But I do think the part we lack into a new world for woman is equal pay. Why is it a woman and man can go up for the same job and have the same qualities but the man is most likely to get the job for a higher pay rate?

Perhaps one day we will truly be seen as ourselves instead of the *gasp* weaker sex.

Wow! What an amazing blog, Liz!

I’ll probably catch all kinds of flak for this but I’m going to play devil’s advocate anyway.

Something that I haven’t seen addressed in this “either/or” discussion is the issue of who raises the children?

That was part of the argument back in the 70’s when women were deciding whether to have a career or a family.

No one can love a baby/child like a mommy. 

It kind of makes me wonder if we’d have all these young women inflating their lips and breasts if they’d been at home with mom instead of at Kindercare with fifty other kids being watched over by indifferent attendants.

Would our young people be tattooing themselves from eyebrows to ankles? And would they have such a jaded outlook on life?

I talk to so many of my daughters friends and all of them tell me the same thing; their parents who have these stellar careers are so wrapped up in themselves, they don’t even know a thing about their own kids.

It’s very sad.

OV_99 and Cara, thank you for pointing out that girly girl stuff like makeup and Barbies has nothing to do with how strong we are. I LOVED Barbie when I was a girl, but never saw her as a role model. That was reserved for the strong women in my life, especially my grandmothers and great aunts.

Brandy, that’s always been my take on feminism--it gave us a choice about how to live our lives, something we didn’t have before. Now we all need to learn to respect each other’s choices, regardless of whether that’s to stay at home, pursue a career, marry, stay single, have kids, not have kids, whatever.

And, Angelica, VERY excellent point. As the mother of a son, this is very much at the forefront of my thinking. His father and I are equal partners in his parenting, and we’re trying to raise him not as a boy, but as a human being. When he was a baby, I sought out a female pediatrician and dentist, so he could see women in a variety of roles. (Now that he’s approaching his teens, however, he prefers to see the male doctor in the pediatric practice, understandably.) He’s also learning all aspects of the household--cooking and laundry in addition to budgeting. (Which he sees me do, because I’m the one who pays the bills, etc.)

Not long ago, when we had the facts of life talk with him, I went out and bought the Judy Blume book about boys’ puberty, THEN AGAIN MAYBE I WON’T. But I also bought him the Judy Blume book about girls’ puberty, ARE YOU THERE GOD? IT’S ME, MARGARET because I thought he should know what girls go through, too. My hope is that he’ll see genders as what we are--different in many ways, but equal in many more.

And don’t get me started on equal pay for equal work…

X-posted with you, Cinthia. You have touched on one of my favorite subjects, since my husband was the primary caregiver, a stay-at-home dad, until my son entered school. (Though, as said above, we are equal partners in the parenting these days, since we both work now.)

I don’t think there’s a gender divide in who can care for children better. My husband was much more patient and less anxious than I would have been, had our roles been reversed. He’s also a wonderful preschool teacher. Plus, I think fathers bring something very important to their kids that mothers don’t, and vice versa.

I do think it’s best for kids if one parent stays home to raise them. (And again, gender in this regard is immaterial.) But I also think kids can spend a good chunk of the day in the care of someone else and turn out just fine, provided their parents work hard with the bonding when they’re together. And I think kids who stay home with a parent can end up totally messed up. I don’t think it’s the fact that they’re home or away. I think the parenting that goes on has to be excellent.

A lot of people my age who grew up in traditional homes with working dads and stay-at-home moms still ended up in therapy and not particularly close to at least one of those parents. (Case in point: moi.) And a lot of people my age who grew up with two working parents ended up perfectly well balanced with close relationships to those parents. I think the important thing is making sure your child is loved and respected when you’re with her/him.

Wow, great discussion! This is somewhat off topic, but one mixed message that really gets my goat is the way that feminist authors who write “literary” books look down their noses at women (and men) who read and write romance.

If you read the novels of “literary” authors like Mary Gordon, Anna Quindlen, or Erica Jong, (all graduates of ultra-elite Barnard College, right across the street from my humble alma mater, Columbia) it becomes obvious that none of them can do what our Squawkers do. They can’t create believable male characters, or write a fast moving plot line, or write about sex with tenderness or enthusiasm, or even imagine a happy ending for two people in love. Yet at the same time, their books are peppered with snobbery towards the “uneducated” women of the South and Midwest—the kind they imagine read and write romance. Modern literary feminism is riddled with hypocrisy, not to mention ethnic prejudice, regional prejudice, and class prejudice.

Pick up any Mary Gordon novel (such as FINAL PAYMENTS or MEN AND ANGELS) and you’re sure to catch a few cheap shots at “country music” and “women with big hair” and “romance novels.” It’s doubly insulting in that you get a very clear sense that Mary Gordon herself has never read a romance novel, and certainly never sat down and talked to the fascinating, brilliant, and highly accomplished women who write them.

The greatest irony of all, of course, is when you read a “literary” author who supposedly “celebrates” female sexuality, like Erica Jong, but only on the most infantile level. Read FANNY, her mock 18th century novel, and you see a clumsy sex novel with no emotional content at all. Bertrice Small or Jo Beverley or any one of our Squawkers could write a better and more authentic love story set in that time period without even trying. But Erica Jong is a “literary” writer because her heroine hops from bed to bed without consequences and lectures the male characters on (20th century) feminism at the drop of a garter.

The whole difference between “high” culture and “low” culture in our society is a scam, IMHO. And regrettably, too many upper class feminists find it easier to engage in unthinking snobbery based on class privilege than to think in terms of genuine sisterhood or open mindedness.

Go Larry!

I think right now the two biggest obstacle for girls is that the government and “feminist” groups require special privileges and protections for them while MTV and Hollywood encourage them to explore their sexuality.

My friend’s son just got back from a ice hockey tournament in Chicago where the two girls teams (compared to 30+ boys teams) required that no one hit them.  Before any one says its a size issue, they’re 11 and 12 years old, the girls are bigger. Also, the girl on his team regularly gets hit and dishes it out. Not only that, the boy wants to play field hockey, but isn’t allowed to because he is in fact, a boy.  Educationally, his opportunities will be limited because he wants to be an engineer.  Male engineers aren’t in demand, but a girl with an average math grade is a find for colleges and the private groups that will fund her education.  So this young man will be limited in both academic and athletic scholarships because of his gender. 

Watch each night on those entertainment shows.  They celebrate people like Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, and Brittany Spears and talk about how they are in control of their sexuality and even ABC listed the Pussycat Dolls (former strippers) as a band for female empowerment.  I don’t have much use for Hollywood or most music today, but Pink’s song “Stupid Girls” and Reece Witherspoon’s comments that today’s starlets need to realize they are role models do give a glimmer of hope.

By the way, I’m a stay at home dad after teaching and coaching in elementary schools for many years.  The biggest problem girls have believing they are equal is that the “feminists” and government agencies don’t treat them as equal and the entertainment establishment says that’s ok.